INNOVATION MINDSET

JABBOR KAYUMOV
CEO and Managing Director, Ncell

Jabbor Kayumov, the recently appointed Chief Executive Officer (CEO) and Managing Director (MD) of Ncell Axiata brings with him almost 20 years of experience in the senior management of the telecommunications industry. Already a CEO at 29, he is highly driven, and performance based. Kayumov has worked with some of the biggest names in telecom such as Telia, Veon (known as Beeline), and Digicel. Prior to joining Ncell, Kayumov worked as the CEO of Digicel Trinidad & Tobago followed by Digicel Jamaica until April 2023. In the Caribbean markets, he led a turnaround of business operations transitioning into becoming a digital operator. He holds extensive knowledge of the industry along with a successful track record in his role as the chief executive. 

What stands out when you meet Kayumov is his passion to achieve and his strong sense of urgency and purpose. It feels that he is constantly learning, observing, and absorbing from the people and ecosystem to distill the best and put it into practice. The telecom business is the fastest evolving, and it is very evident that he is racing against time to build on his expertise and position his company to the highest levels of accomplishment. Telecom executives are usually the behind-the-scenes type; Kayumov is unafraid to speak his mind, disrupt or own his mistakes. 

In this edition of Business 360, we spoke to Kayumov about Ncell as it completes 18 years in Nepal, the telecom industry, and what drives him to do what he does each day. Excerpts: 

Could you tell us about yourself and how you entered the telecom industry?

I was born in Tajikistan back when it was still a part of the USSR. Later, the Soviet Union collapsed, and my country had a civil war. So, my early years of life were quite disruptive and challenging. It was only when I was 20 years old that I actually went out on my first international trip to Dubai and India. It was during this trip I discovered that the world is way bigger than anything I had experienced in the Soviet days, and it was also then that I realised I wanted to travel the world more. Thus, as a student, I started to apply for a lot of programmes and scholarships to learn and travel. I also was trying to find a job that would allow me to work in different parts of the world. Then when I was young, I envisioned that I want to become a global manager whereby I could run a business in any part of the world.

During my teens, I also tried to do my own business, but then I didn’t have money neither the experience nor any network. Then, I realised that these three elements are very critical for any startup business. Later, I was introduced to the telecom industry; I think I was about 24 years old. However, I actually started working when I was 19 which was basically as an intern on a part-time basis. My educational background is in economics and later I also did political science and conflict prevention. Initially, I was involved with a few international non-governmental organisations, however, working with them for a few years, I realised that though it is a good thing, but it’s not necessarily changing the world. I believed that private companies or public companies that are doing business can change the society and can contribute to the development of the country and that ultimately and indirectly helps the communities to grow and lead a better life. I started  gravitating towards the private sector and started my career as a marketing officer in a telecom company that was operating in CDMA standard (different than GSM). Two years down the road I was headhunted by the number one operator Tcell which in those days was owned by TeliaSonera.

In my country back then in 2005, we had nine operators for a population of maybe eight million people, but penetration was very low and it was those days when telecom was just about to start booming. As I mentioned the company I was headhunted was owned by TeliaSonera. Very fast, I became a Chief Marketing Officer, and then around three years later, I got the opportunity to become an acting CEO. So, by the age of 29, I got my exposure becoming CEO of a leading telecom operator of the country. That was a very fast event for me now looking back to those years. 

When I was young, I was very aggressive as I was a believer. Anything I would do; I would truly believe in it. So that passion, that commitment and aggressiveness together wouldn’t let me lose any opportunity. Courage was overshooting, and I think that is the reason why at the age of 29 I became a CEO. I have to admit that the company had a very good corporate culture and I got exposed to a lot of good people and examples of leadership. Those days taught me a lot and those years were critical in my professional career. Nevertheless, staying and being successful in my home country only was not my ultimate goal and my management knew that I was looking for something outside of my comfort zone. Two years down the road, there was an opportunity in Nepal, so I grabbed it and I came to Nepal to join Ncell as a Chief Commercial Officer.

I was offered this posting due to my track record within TeliaSonera in Tajikistan and my commercial background. Nepal has a different culture to Tajikistan. I came to Nepal with my limited Soviet blended and light European style of management. The two years here in Ncell taught me a lot about different styles of management and execution methodology. In some countries, it’s a direct style: straightforward, pushy, and a high level of demand whereas the European management style is more about collaboration, discussion, engagement, and respect, whereas in Asia, particularly in Nepal, it has its own specifics. Sometimes people here are driven by family values that is very unique in the professional circle. Nevertheless, Ncell and the telecoms industry was booming those days with a lot of interesting things happening at the same point in time. All these together taught me to see things from different perspectives.

Business in those days, was growing by double digits and we had become number one very quickly. And obviously being a Chief Commercial Officer, I was responsible for revenue and subscriber market share that was growing above expectations. I remember Ncell was doing a lot of beautiful things here but somehow for me that wasn’t enough. The hunger and aggressiveness which I believe have been part of my personality since I was young, made me decide to move on and find new challenges. I left the country, but after some time I came back to help to develop the third operator in Nepal. We had a good start and had almost a million customers, but being in this business requires a lot of cash, investments, and luck, but then the earthquake happened. So, those types of headwinds and challenges didn’t allow the company to grow as fast as I wanted. Therefore, three years after a lot of efforts, I returned to my home country to join the Veon subsidiary in Tajikistan that was operating under “Beeline” brand.

When I initially joined Beeline Tajikistan, the company wasn’t in good shape, but in two years we managed to transform it into a growing business. After two years of accomplishing my mission there, the company was sold, and I got headhunted to move and work in the Caribbean. I joined Digicel, an Irish owned company that has a wide footprint in all the Caribbean islands and some parts of North and South America. I worked for five years in Trinidad & Tobago and Jamaica and was lucky to turnaround the company’s fortunes there. In the two-and-a-half years in Trinidad and Tobago, we had two years of fastest growth in comparison to the previous years. The same story was repeated in Jamaica - the island of one love and Bob Marley.

When I reflect, it looks like I am intentionally picking up companies that are struggling with growth at some period of their development and I was stepping into it to help those companies to start reinventing themselves and meet shareholder expectations.

What is your vision for Ncell?

Ncell’s story is quite unique for me personally because I have seen and been a part of it in early days. The company has really grown and changed. I think what makes the Ncell story a bit complicated is the expectations that customers have from us. If I may say so it is way above the expectations from any other service provider.  But at the same time, it is the same for every leader in life and business. You have to be ahead, above everyone else. Everyone expects way more from Ncell and I believe that is what makes us who we are today – we work hard to meet those expectations every day.

So, when it comes to your question about my vision for Ncell, I think Ncell will continue meeting the expectations of the customers and will continue being the most innovative service provider in Nepal. Ncell is pretty much a Nepali company. It was born in Nepal and 98% people working here are Nepalis. And I can tell you that from a capability perspective, skills, knowledge, and expertise perspective, Ncell is well equipped to do things best and differently. I believe that not only our customers but Nepal as a country can be proud of Ncell. Our vision is to make Ncell the best 360-degree service and digital provider in Nepal.

Ncell’s brand theme, Ncell HERE FOR YOU sends the message that Ncell is here since the last 18 years and is here for every Nepali in terms of connectivity. Could you share some examples that embody this theme in terms of brand commitment, customer experience, community activities and network enhancement, etc?

From day one, we were here to liberate the market. Previously, phones, SIM cards, mobile phones were things that were a privilege, a service that could be afforded only by wealthy people. It was very expensive to make a call. It was very expensive to own a phone. So, I think the first thing was to bring that freedom to everyone in Nepal so that everyone could afford it. I think that was done quite successfully.

Secondly, when the rebranding did happen with Ncell, the purple colour was introduced, there was a lot of excitement in the way the company did that. It was a representation of the brand and the service. Not only the connectivity but the customer-centric proposition that Ncell has is mind-blowing. So, I think that is key to be maintained and so definitely I am committed to continue doing what was the foundation of the company.

Ncell was always here for Nepali people. We have a lot of CSR or giving back initiatives. We have a lot of things to do based on what our consumer wants. So, in those days we came with a statement that Ncell was here for Nepal. So ‘Here For You’ is actually a continuation of our initial identity translated in our customer centricity as a core value of our operations. So ‘Here For You’ means we are here to listen, we are here to come back with a solution because the requirements of customers back then to the requirements of the new generation are very different. We are now using the phone 24/7. We are ordering food, we organise taxis, we pay our bills, we do everything through our phones. It is not about the basic requirement of making calls that existed 15 or 10 years ago. It is a more complex solution that Ncell is continuing to come up with. And we are already doing this but ‘Here for You’ means that we put people at the heart of our work, we meet consumer needs from the business perspective and community needs from the CSR perspective.

How do you view the growth of the telecom market, and Ncell in particular?

I have been in the industry for almost 20 years. I have seen the industry doing really well in terms of returns and being appreciated by consumers and society. When I say industry, I don’t mean Nepal only. These days I think the telecoms industry has devalued itself from the value-add perspective. Today, a cup of coffee might cost you more than your monthly bill for your phone. And just compare the value added. There are monthly plans which cost you less than $5 or Rs 500. Sometimes your lunch costs way more than that. What I am trying to say is that the value that gives you the connectivity is actually huge and somehow, we still think it is expensive. I’m not sure, but telecoms might be the only industry in Nepal that didn’t increase the prices in the last 10 years, where the inflation, and depreciation of local currency are not helping the business. 

So, it is clear that if we want to continue enjoying the latest technologies and the best quality of service, we have some work to do. Nevertheless, I believe growth will come from nontraditional solutions. And those nontraditional solutions are not necessarily voice, not necessarily data, but it is actually something that is addressing the needs of the consumer, maybe education, maybe a health platform may be financial services through the internet or, other digital needs like music and entertainment. So, I think that the evolution of the service provider like ours is going to be key for future growth. And, I think the role of the government and the regulator in this particular aspect is also very critical because the regulator has to make sure that industries and companies like Ncell will have the returns that will ensure continued investments in the latest technologies.

What I am saying here is that we return the profit into investment, into new technologies. This business is very capital-intensive. Ten years ago, it was 2G network, basic voice. Now we have 3G and 4G and now everyone wants 5G. But to build these layers of new technologies and give any Nepali customer exposure to highly advanced technologies will require investment. So those investments have to come back from the business making profit. The regulator will have to ensure that the cost of the new technologies like spectrum or licences will allow companies to earn profits which in return will allow the companies to fully invest into new technologies.Telecoms is not something you can build and monetise for 20 years. It is something you build, you maintain, and then you have to come up with newer technologies. So, the average lifespan of any new technology is five and a maximum seven to ten years and then it’s gone.

In these 18 years of Ncell in Nepal, how would you review Ncell’s contribution to the telecom industry and the economy in general?

When there was only one operator in the country, Ncell came and brought that ability for customers to be able to use such services. We liberated the market and we introduced 3G and data. I think from economic perspective it is evident that a few points of GDP are actually linked directly to telecoms. Our contribution to GDP stood at 1.3% in the fiscal year 2021/22 with a contribution of Rs 51.71 billion to Nepal’s economy, while in the same year Rs 20 billion in taxes and fees were paid.  So, the growth of the economy here is there, and the contribution to access the world and knowledge is huge. On top of it, we are one of the top taxpayers. In the last five years (2017/18-2021/22), Ncell has contributed Rs 137.15 billion in taxes and fees to the government. Similarly, around 24,000 jobs are supported by our business. Of the total, more than 14,000 jobs are supported by our operations, while over 9,000 are supported by our capital investment. Every point of sales gets a commission and runs their family. We have employed more than 500 Nepalis directly and thousands indirectly.

As a responsible corporate citizen, we have also been contributing to the social-economic development through our Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) initiatives. We have contributed over Rs 1.80 billion in social projects, which I doubt any other company in Nepal has done so far. At Ncell, in line with our Axiata Group’s ESG Framework, we believe in giving back to society and creating impact. And we are committed to continuing it.

Under CSR on the occasion of 18th anniversary, we have announced our strategic partnership with the National Paralympic Committee (NPC) Nepal to support Paralympic national players who will be representing Nepal in national and international games. As per this partnership, Ncell extends support for ensuring the overall training and development of the national players along with their required diet and nutrition around the year.

Similarly, with an intent to reach and connect with local communities from all seven provinces, we are implementing ‘18 for 18’ social initiative, aiming to provide local solutions to local problems. The seed fund for such community projects is Rs 1 million for one project in one community with a primary focus on education and health and other areas being environment, disaster response, and livelihood support.

The demand is for high-speed internet connectivity and we are talking about 5G. Is our digital infrastructure ready for 5G?

We can start from the consumer side. For example, an average customer in Nepal today doesn’t have a phone that can support 5G. Only the latest versions of iPhones and some Android phones have 5G. So, the statistic is clear. Only 1-2% of customers today have a handset that is capable of utilising 5G technology. The second thing is that 5G technology will require a lot of investment from operators like us. It will require a lot of bandwidth or the transmission capacity which is not necessarily built. So, I would say 5G is a good thing to have, but maybe we need a couple of years to make sure that the market is ready, and the infrastructure is ready to provide and offer it to the market. But we also need a huge support from the regulator and the government. As I mentioned earlier, the costs of the spectrum and new technologies are high for the moment and makes it hard for service providers to pass it onto the consumer. But I’m sure if all stakeholders work together, we will make it happen soon.

Once again, for a company like Ncell, we can launch 5G in the next couple of months, but it will be limited coverage in Kathmandu only. And as I told you, even if we are going to put some towers with 5G and assuming even the spectrum is going to be given for free, only 1%-2% of the customers can use 5G because handsets are not there. So, it will make sense only when all these elements move together.

What are the current challenges – policy or market - for the telecom market in Nepal?

I will speak from the industry perspective and from our company perspective. I think from industry perspective, there has been a decline in profits and it’s happening not only in Nepal. Many operators are facing the same challenges. Some countries are managing this situation very successfully and regulators are ensuring that returns are at a healthy level, so service providers can continue reinvesting into the new technologies. Some countries are a bit slow in addressing that and this provokes an alarming situation in the industry because if the profit is going down or if it’s negative, then the capability of the operator to reinvest into new technology, to reinvest in maintaining the quality of service, is very low. The quality of the service in Nepal at the moment is ok, but even now it can be better and let’s say five years down the road it is going to be a very scary situation because the quality might start degrading if operators don’t have enough resources/mussels to reinvest. And it’s not necessarily from cutting the cost but increasing the top line. So, companies need some flexibility to address the valuation, address inflation because the investment is happening in hard currency and returns are in local currency and if you are going to check your average bill then the requirements for what we need to invest are going up. This is not a sustainable model for the industry and obviously we are working with the regulator, with the ministries, and the decision makers are well aware about this situation. Hopefully, it will be addressed soon. It is kind of our collective call to make some bold decisions to protect the industry and ensure that Nepali people will continue getting quality service. Otherwise, complaints will continue to increase but the ability to address them by service providers won’t be there.

When it comes to specific pain point for Ncell, we are serving more than 16 million customers every single day for the last 18 years. It is more than half of the country. Our responsibility in front of those customers is huge because they need to be connected to data network, they have to be connected to the voice network 24/7. The demand and content consumption is going up.

And when you are the number one operator and serving the majority of the customers, you need more resources and support. You need more support and clear leadership from the regulator. So, coming back to the main thing, there are few low hanging fruits or quick wins for example spectrum – it is interesting that Nepal has available spectrum that can be monetised - the government can allocate additional spectrum and it will bring additional revenue to the government and will improve the speed of internet and quality of service to Nepalis almost overnight - at least16 million Nepalis will get faster internet. Quality of data connectivity and voice connectivity will improve. It might even help us to improve the coverage. So that may be would be the only main pain point that the company is having as of today. And obviously we are looking forward to getting some guidance and support from the decision makers on our long-term initiative covering 5G and possible next-generation technologies. We want Nepal to be the most advanced technology country in Asia if not in the world.

What does IoT mean for Ncell??

The Internet of Things or IoT will continue booming. We will have connected cars, connected appliances, in fact, everything will be connected. They might have physical SIM cards or wi-fi or e-SIM solutions. All those machines have to be connected through companies like Ncell. These solutions might come from Ncell or other third-party service providers. So IoT will be booming, and we are set to support this.

Will the IoT work at optimum level without 5G connectivity?

It will work properly to a certain extent. However, there will be issues regarding providing solutions when you hit a certain threshold. For example, currently 4G can serve, let’s assume 10,000 SIM cards or IOT devices. When 5G comes, it can serve 100,000 or more using the same spectrum. So increased capacity and speed is the new technological advantage.

What is your personal management style? What does leadership mean to you and how do you function on a day-to-day basis?

My initial background was the Soviet Union management style. Then I came here and started working as per the European management style, at the same time I have also learnt the Asian management style. Later it was the European and Irish style and then the Caribbean management style. So, I have been exposed to different styles of management in different locations and have found a few common things. There are also a few unique things with its own pros and cons in the style that you practice.

But the one common thing that makes any leader quite successful is actually based on three principles or important skills: a leader should be visionary; a leader should be capable to bring right people on board; and a leader should be really good in making things happen. If one of these skills is not there, success is under risk. So, one of the biggest responsibilities of the visionary leader is actually finding the right people who share the values and your vision. So, three things that are key for any leader: One is to have that vision or dream, second is have that skill to engage the right people. And the third is execution because you can dream, you can plan, you can have right people but if you are not capable to execute then nothing is going to happen.

Another very common thing in all these different styles that stand out is actually the capability to empower. Some managers may not prefer this and sometimes gravitate towards manual control, making it a one-man show when all decisions are centralised. But I think a more efficient way for long-term gain is actually building that capacity to empower. This means every single person has the power to make a decision every single day and has a power to make things happen. Otherwise, if everyone is going to be just asking the big boss for every decision and unless the main man won’t tell you what to do and you do nothing, then that makes the company very slow and bureaucratic. You are not agile and here you go – you are out from the race as the world is fast and tough.

The world is changing very fast and as I mentioned earlier the telecom industry won’t tolerate static, manual methodology. Look just 15 years ago we had 2G, then 10 years back all was about 3G, and five years ago we introduced 4G. Now everyone is talking about 5G. This is the story of the industry over the course of only 15 years. Things are changing very fast. The demand of the customer these days is “I want to be connected 24/7 despite where I am.” Whether a person is a CEO or a mountaineer, they want to be connected 24/7. People want to watch YouTube; they want to watch Netflix and all that without any buffering. You need to be best and agile and address it.

As a leader you decide the pace of the company. But when you come into a long existing company as a leader, there is already a pace in existence. How do you work around that? How do you set the pace for a company to match yours?

I have been here in Ncell for four months, I am really proud of certain things about Ncell. But to be precise, I am a disrupter. I disrupt myself and I disturb others that sets a pace and tone. There could be a certain way or method being practiced to getting things done but we have to be able to disrupt, so that we can come up with better solutions all the time and not end up with our habits only. I am just 42, but I am learning every day. I am open to it despite being at the top. I learn more from interns than I learn from somebody who has been with the industry for 30 years and we have really good interns in this company. We will soon have a programme where we will invite interns to come and disrupt the way we do business. I believe disruption is the way forward in this digital and VUCA world.

If you see my story, I was always pushing myself outside of my comfort zone. I trust myself, my instincts and that is a key element for my success. It doesn’t mean I always make right decisions. I am only human and did, do, and will probably make more mistakes. Those are the reasons why I am where I am today.

I believe, if I would allow myself to enjoy my comfort zone, then possibly I would have been happier, which again is very subjective. I am very happy now, just for the record. But some people do enjoy being in the comfort zone which is fine for them, but disruption is something that will expose you to things you would have never been exposed to and I believe that is the real life. So, don’t waste your life.

For example, some days or some weekends you might decide to spend time at home just watching TV which is great, but for me I am hungry for time and life. I’ll push myself to go places I have never been, do things I have never done. I may not enjoy it, I may even be disappointed, but that’s okay, I tried and that counts.

When it comes to business ability, to disrupt yourself is very important. Disrupt yourself before somebody comes and disrupts you because there are many good examples of great companies missing that moment and being disrupted. Kodak is an example. Nokia is another example. Great companies, no doubt, but at some point, somebody came and just disrupted them. And when you lose the momentum, you are out of the game.

Is it like lonely at the top?

I think it depends on your personality. Yes. It can be very, very lonely because sometimes you are supposed to make decisions which are not popular. Sometimes you can’t share your thoughts with a wider audience because it might impact them, or it might have a counter effect. It is lonely, but it also depends on your personality, I have developed the ability to segregate work and my personal life. Outside of office, we can have fun. I can live my life. I can have friends. I can separate business and personal things.

Again, it can be very lonely. Am I lonely? Not necessarily. I do what I think I want to do. And again, family plays a huge role here. If you have a family, you will never be alone. They won’t let you be alone (smiles).

What about when it comes to taking major decisions? Assumably, everybody goes through self-doubt and there is always that question on whether I am on the right trajectory, however calculated my decisions might be. At the end of the day, the success or the failure, whatever, the onus lies with you as the leader…

At the top, success is pretty much shared whereas failure is on you alone. And that is not a secret. But when it comes to empowering the team, you have to fuel the courage of others by saying ‘just do your thing; if it’s going to fly, it’s you. If it’s going to fail, then it’s me’.
I have made hundreds of mistakes. I make decisions every single day and to be honest, the ratio of a right and a wrong decision sometimes is 50:50. The other thing is you have to be ready to fail and you have to be ready to take responsibility for that. But then again it depends on how quickly you recover. So, failing fast is key. Any decision I take I am ready to bear its consequences. It might be a wrong decision, but I am more than happy to say, okay, sorry I was wrong and move on. So, when you fail you are pretty much alone, but you have to be prepared mentally to move on and take the next step.

Against the backdrop of economic and political instability and a lot of corruption in recent days, people are concerned about communication on their phone as it could be tapped. They would rather communicate via WhatsApp. Majorly the concern is about privacy. As a private company how does that align with the government’s views on privacy and cyber security?

In every single country I have worked, and I am not talking about Nepal only, there will be criminal elements. However, there is a procedure and law that should be followed, which means that privacy or private information of any customer must not be compromised. That’s a common thing for the operators across the world, including Ncell. I could be the CEO here, but I can’t get into the details of your phone. I cannot see who you call. I literally can’t do it. Even if I call anybody from our office right now and ask them, they will say they cannot share that information with me. There are strict procedures here at Ncell. If there is a court order to share that information because of whatever criminal investigation or whatever is going on, even then there are specific procedures set by the law of the land that have to be respected and followed.

So, if there is a court order and law supports it, it will be done. But it doesn’t mean it will compromise the personal information of any customer. And it’s the same in many countries because, you know, if it is needed for investigation that is going on and it’s a legitimate request, then only the operator will consider it.

However, every request of that type still has a lot of procedures. Anybody who has access to that information, if it goes into the system, the system will record it. We have our internal controls and it’s very, very strict. It’s not as easy as it might look and what I can tell for sure is that your privacy and your private information is very, very much secured with Ncell. I use my phone and I know how it works and I feel safe.

In Ncell, it’s all about the internal controls. This is how we do business. We are a part of Axiata and there are a lot of compliance controls we follow. We do things right and it might be a very challenging and a difficult path, but we never compromise on it even though there are some shortcuts. We always follow due procedures and law.

How would you describe the 18-year journey of Ncell in Nepal?

Ncell is now 18 years old. We are grown up. I think this is a big milestone for a mature company which is settled with its identity. We know exactly who we are and we know exactly what we want to become. It was a lot of dreams initially, and we realised some of them so far, with more to come true and more new dreams to come. We are going to do a lot of good things for the Ncell family and for the country and obviously for all the customers we serve today and will serve in the future.

Eighteen years is a big milestone. This is going to be the first time we will be celebrating it, and we will be doing it in a very different way, we actually will be appreciating our customers and partners. It is a celebration of them and our relationship over past 18 years. Ncell has over 16 million loyal customers. We are going to celebrate them… those who have been with us from day one and even those who have joined us recently. We are going to recognise customers and partners because without them, we wouldn’t be where we are today.

Our customers recognise and appreciate us - this actually inspires us to do even more. Their feedback keeps us challenged to become better. When a customer calls you and asks you for more it makes you think outside the box and become better.

What do you do for your own personal growth?

What I have trained myself to do is to observe and develop the skill to see things in perspective and differently. The same glass can be seen from different perspectives. So, what I do to develop myself is to meet different and new people. I talk to them, interact with them, and I observe them. I try to get into their mind and understand their unique talents or superpower. I try to learn that and practice that, develop it and adopt it. Everyone has a superpower – so people around you are the most unique books you can learn from.

I also, learn from our customers and from those I work with. A lot of people read books, but books are theory. For me, practical knowledge works better, and it is way more intense. I am lucky and blessed to work with different people in different countries, different cultures, different backgrounds. This has exposed me to things I would never be able to learn unless I had travelled and pushed myself outside of my comfort zone.